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My Response To Those That Called Me A Ninja

I appreciate all the comments to my last post about my alleged ninja-looting incident. I say alleged because there are arguments for both sides of the issue. But before I respond to everyone, let me clarify a few things.

There are a few things in my last post that I left out. Some of it was intentional and some if it wasn’t, but I feel everyone touched on the main points of the issue.

For All Intents And Purposes

What was my actual intent on rolling on loot? It was with the intent to gear myself up. I want another Ulduar geared healer. It was not my intent to acquire loot and pass it on.

Gnomer brought up a good point I hadn’t thought about regarding my intent and if I rolled “after [my] guildy’s roll was beaten”. I can gladly say that I rolled first out of everyone including pugs. It was the last item of the night and a few people had already started leaving the raid while probably half the raid had already ported back to Dalaran.

One fact I intentionally left out of the story was that I gave the item to my guildie after the raid. In fact, I had already left raid and we were both in Dalaran. The raid was over. The reason I ended up giving it to her was due to a playful complaint about her roll after the fact.

OK, so this exonerates me, right? Some of you might say yes, because my intent was good. Others will still argue that if I was going to pass, then the pass goes to the next in line. I don’t get to arbitrarily pick who I pass it to which D defined as a loot council, only I’m a council of one.

Rationalizing

No one ever wants to feel like they are in the wrong. It’s not a great feeling, so when we find ourselves in the wrong position it’s human nature to try to rationalize our way out of it. You could argue that my last post was doing that and I can argue that some of my readers were rationalizing that I’m not exactly a ninja. But the majority of you agreed that I did ninja the item.

Firespirit stated “Yes, guildies come first, but even if your only pug 1 or 2, that raid would most likely not have happened without them.” And I agree that guildies come first, but as stated this wasn’t a guild run. I would disagree that the lack of 1 or 2 pugs in a Naxx25 given my guilds gear and abilities would have stopped the run. We weren’t missing necessary tanks or healers, but I would hope that my readers are fair-minded enough to not use that as an argument.

Just because you could do it without pugs, doesn’t make stacking the odds against them fair. And I have seen that rationalization in game before. The pugs couldn’t do it without all of us so they get to live with it is almost a direct quote. Fortunately that officer quit my former guild a short time later.

To: Those That Called Me A Ninja

My response to you is: Busted! Let’s be honest. I knew the answer before I even started writing the post, but I also know it’s a somewhat controversial topic and would make a great post.

Some of you didn’t call me a ninja because I didn’t set out with that intention. And I definitely appreciate that. Even winning the last item I intended on keeping it, trading it in, and gearing up. Due to a flippant comment made in fun, I decided to pass it to a guildie. The raid was over, the pugs had left, end of story. But is it?

The raid hadn’t been over that long. All I had to do was scroll up to see the names of those that rolled, find the second highest, and pass it to the pug. But as Firespirit said, “guildies come first”. So why would I pass it to a pug instead of keeping it? I wouldn’t. I doubt any of you would either. But that’s not the point for that side of the argument. Even if you attempt to argue that the guy went offline your argument falls short since the 2 hour trade window is game time**, so you can still trade as long as you don’t gem, enchant, or stay online for more than 2 hours.

And as it turns out my guildie actually realized after the fact that she had a better helm and gave me the token back. So in the end the net result was nothing. No one lost unfairly on loot. But that doesn’t make for a good post. :)

Be Prepared

To be honest, I don’t pug very often so I never thought this situation would present itself to me. As such I wasn’t prepared. After the raid I decided to be nice and give a friend the token and it wasn’t until after I did that I realized perhaps that wasn’t the right thing to do. But now I’ve had time to think about it, this is what I will be doing:

If it is an upgrade, I’m going to roll. If I win and something happens that makes me decide to pass, it goes to the next highest roll. If it is not an upgrade, then I don’t roll.

  • I win several items and I stop rolling. No one rolls on an item so I do, but then someone changes their mind and rolls.
  • I roll and then 15 other people roll. I will often consider withdrawing my roll, but I usually lose anyway. :P
  • If a lot of people roll on an item, I usually don’t even bother. Seriously. I want loot as much as the next guy, but it’ll drop again so…meh. This is probably why I’ve never completed a full tier set…ever.

This still leaves one little issue that I’m extremely curious about what you all think. Depending on the who the 2nd highest roll is would definitely influence whether I pass or not. For a guildie? Sure. A pug? No. Is that unfair? Logic tells me no, but something in my gut says yes.

And whatever you decide to do is up to you. It’s not for me to judge. I’m just advising you to be prepared because if you’re like me, you will feel guilty after the fact.

*Following the poll results didn’t really help me decide, so I’m doing three simultaneously because I’m bored. :)
**At least if I’ve observed it correctly. I’ve logged in the next day to enchant an item and gotten the warning.

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12 Responses

  1. Ohh.. what about if roll #2 was an arsehat that couldn’t dps/heal/tank their way out of a wet paper bag… (caused by attitude rather than gear)

    I encountered a Mage recently that was so unhappy that they lost a roll, they kept popping the trade window on the winner… the healer… during a boss fight…

    I can assure you I would have skipped over them when deciding where to give the loot I no longer required…

    Nice follow up… I have been pondering this issue since commenting.

    FYI, Rohan from Blessing of Kings had a post of a similar nature, but discussing influencing the probability:

    Is Fairness Relative or Absolute?
    http://blessingofkings.blogspot.com/2009/09/is-fairness-relative-or-absolute.html

  2. If they’re an arse, I wouldn’t pass either. :)

  3. I don’t think that calling you a loot ninja as that term is commonly used is fair at all. I would hope that labels like that would be reserved for egregious examples of blatant selfishness, not situations of dubious moral ambiguity of minor consequence like the one you described.

    I’m quite glad you did post about this because it did make for very interesting reading!

    (…that first paragraph of mine sounds ridiculous. I blame the morning rain.)

  4. Gnome – if they were that much of an arse – they should have been removed from the raid. No fuss, no loot, no problem.

    Actually, I had to think long and hard about this one – and my gut tells me that if I’m going to get rid of it, it goes to the 2nd on the roll list, guildie or pug doesn’t matter. Even if I’ve got a fellow guildie who is dying for the drop – but then again, if I didn’t need it and other’s did, I wouldn’t have rolled.

  5. I don’t think intent is what makes someone a loot ninja as opposed to a loot whore. The end result is what determines that. Hopefully this never happens to me, as I usually run screaming in the other direction from any pugging, unless it’s a friend of a friend type situation. Although you retained the item, I’m still going to call you a ninja…just because I know it will bother you. You didn’t think leaving Arathor was going to stop me from bugging the crap out of you, did you? :D

  6. @Shayzani – :D I don’t think anyone was actually calling me a loot ninja, because I agree with you that there’s a difference between loot ninja and ninja’ing loot. The title was a blatant attempt at getting attention. :P

    @Sollenni – Who needs enemies with friends like you? :P

  7. I did a post on my site about fairness. And after some thought, fairness that we refer to in game, really isn’t direct fairness. Its more about fun, and relative fairness.

    However, thanks for the direct quote :) Glad I was able to add to the conversation!

    In the end, it takes very mature players to bang out loot rules, and mature players to follow them. A ninja is in the eye of the beholder, after all.

  8. If I was Roll #2 it would go to me, otherwise if you rolled on it and won it legit. It’s yours to do whatever you want to do with it.

  9. Good post nonetheless. Reminds us there are different situations and different personalities in the game.

  10. Hey, I read a lot of blogs on a daily basis and for the most part, people lack substance but, I just wanted to make a quick comment to say GREAT blog!…..I”ll be checking in on a regularly now….Keep up the good work! :)

  11. I had a situation a few weeks back where a dps chest dropped on IC, then the tier dropped on Hodir. I rolled offset on both items, without competition [I wasn't going to let the tier go to waste and previously I didn't want the chestpiece to either since I could legitimately use it for my offset - I'm a tank mainspec]

    I actually ended up passing the stormbreaker one to the other tank [after telling the other officers], because although that person doesn’t use a dps set often, I figured it might help the raid more in his hands, than me having 2 of them.

  12. I don’t know If I said it already but …This blog rocks! I gotta say, that I read a lot of blogs on a daily basis and for the most part, people lack substance but, I just wanted to make a quick comment to say I’m glad I found your blog. Thanks, :)

    A definite great read..Jim Bean

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