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 There were a lot of comments regarding my guild’s DKP system a couple of weeks ago. So I thought a follow-up was in order. But first my thoughts on DKP.

/sounds of footsteps down an empty corridor
/rattling of keys on a keychain
/sounds of key stuck in lock
/muttered cursing
/shattering of door as it’s kicked in

Ah, there they are!

DKP Thoughts

It’s no secret that I’ve been against DKP for some time. It was used briefly in my last guild and was a complete disaster. Looking back there were some obvious reasons as to why though.

We were just starting the guild and trying to get through Karazahn. The officers were all geared beyond Kara and only needed a couple of drops that we rarely ever saw. We were working very hard to get enough geared players through Kara to the point where we could tackle 25 mans and even attempt Zul’Aman. As such, we passed on nearly everything which in turn led to massive DKP hoarding. It wasn’t a couple of weeks later where we realized that this was going to cause problems. So thankfully we abandoned DKP.

In my current guild, we tried the aforementioned DKP system which was a complete disaster. I thought it was a pretty good system and made sense, but it confused others and unfortunately was a management nightmare for the Loot Master so it ultimately failed.

The Benefits

However, the current system has been in place for 25 man raids for a couple of weeks now and is working great! I never thought DKP would be a good thing, but apparently there are some very tangible benefits from it.

  • People sign up. If you want to get invited to the raid, you have to sign up. The officers spend the time on the website to pre-approve people so we know in advance if we are guaranteed a spot. Those not approved still show up just in case a spot opens up. Since instituting DKP we haven’t had a problem fielding a 25 man raid.
  • People are a little more prepared and ready. It isn’t perfect and we still pull a little late, but with the penalties for not being ready and on time, it’s much better. We’re also getting a lot less AFKs during the raid. We pretty much have our scheduled 5-10 minute break after 2 wings and it’s working. We have the occasional necessary AFK and we move on and even down bosses without them. They miss out on the DKP for those bosses obviously, but the raid moves on and wastes less time.
  • So far, little to no drama over loot. An occasional complaint about who’s allowed to bid, but so far so good.

Some of the officers dislike DKP, but they realize it as a necessary evil. Personally, I never thought DKP could work this well. I spent all my DKP last week getting upgrades so the two pants that dropped last night I was outbid on. However, those upgrades I did receive resulted with me being 8th on the damage meters last night according to my Recount, up from 11th or 12th. (I can’t wait to get home and check what the WWS meters for last night’s run says. I’m starting to understand the whole competitive DPS thing. And it isn’t even about being “better” than others, it’s about being “better” than you were last week. :))

Anyway, if your guild is considering DKP it might be worth looking into. It seems to work for us. I wouldn’t advise it for 10 mans though. I’m also wondering how we’re going to handle Ulduar when it comes out? Will it reset or will we continue with the same DKP? I suppose it would depend on if we’re still needing upgrades from the current 25 mans, but then again a lot of people that are getting DKP through donations would probably be upset. Hmmm.

If you use DKP, how do you normally handle DKP resets or do you?

Anyway, here’s <Brotherhood of Oblivion>’s current DKP system:

<Brotherhood of Oblivion>’s DKP System

Regular Winged 25-Man Instances:
On-Time Bonus: 2
Boss (Farm): 3
Boss (Progression): 4
Bank Donation: See Below

Single-Boss 25-Man Instances:
On-Time Bonus: 2 DKP
Boss: 4 DKP
Minibosses (Ie. Sarth Drakes): 1 DKP Each
Hard Mode Bonus: 2 DKP Per Hard-Mode Counter (Drakes, Orbital Platforms, etc.)

Miniboss Caveat: The raid loses their Miniboss DKP if at any point they wipe on a miniboss.

Wipe Nights:
If we end the night on a wipe, you will be awarded 0.5 DKP per wipe on whatever boss we wiped on last per attempt up to a maximum of 3 DKP. This number is rounded down. 0.5 =/= 1

DKP Usage:
You can use all of your DKP earned up until the previous day of raiding.
DKP earned on a raid night will not be available until the next raid night.

Bank Donations:
Bank Donation must be IN GOODS ONLY Must be officer approved.
Please try and mix the donation up, do not donate just one item.
Do not donate cut gems. Give us raw ones.
Raw ore, herbs, etc. are fine. Try and keep metal in ore format, but bars are ok.
As the bank fills up, we will start cutting the DKP Bonus and required worth down.
All donations for DKP must be approved by Zoja.
This means you must donate while Zoja is online.

Bank Donation Values (Last line is current from week listed to now.):
Current Value as of 04/01/09: 8 DKP – 330G Based on current market values.

Need to see DKP In-Game? /w Zoja dkp He has the addon that will whisper your current total back to you.

Starting DKP Breakdown:
New players start at 14 DKP (1 Wing of Clearing at 50/50 Prog/Farm)
DKP is tracked on a CHARACTER basis. You cannot use your main’s DKP on your alt.

Minimum Bid on an Item: 10 DKP
Maximum Bid on an Item: 100 DKP
Cap on DKP: 150 DKP

Two+ Max-Bids? Higher DKP Person Wins. Both at 150? /Random 1000

Only people with Sub-Minimum or minimum-only points bidding on an item?
/Random 100. For every point under 10 you lose 10 to the top of your roll.
I.E. 8 DKP = /random 0-80. 3 DKP = /random 0-30. 10 DKP = /random 0-10

If multiple people with zero DKP want an item, and they’re the only ones? Random 1000.

Alt-Request Compensation:
If we ask you to switch to an alt for the raid, we value you and the work you put into your alt.
You will be awarded the night’s DKP to your main and your alt as compensation.

Respec-Request Compensation:
If we ask you to respec for the night, you continue as normal bidding on your mainspec gear and rolling (if available) for offspec gear.


6 Responses

  1. Seems complicated. It also seems like your system allows people to buy dkp. Is that to allow for people who just can’t make every raid due to real life obligations? And if so, how will lowering this make this better for them in the future?

    Your dkp system seems to be penalty instead of reward based (subtracting dkp for wipes). Wouldn’t it be better to increase the dkp given in case of NO wipes?

  2. Hi Ky 🙂 (Love your site!)
    Just a question for you what add-on does Zoja use for DKP, we are in the process of looking at going to DKP and our GM has been fiddling with various add-ons and hasn’t found any good ones yet. Any help that I can give him may get us using it faster hopefully before Uldar 😉
    At first I was like you resistant to DKP, but I believe now that it is the best thing (at least for our Guild) my favourite comparison is its like a pay check, the more you raid and contribute the more you earn, the more you can spend. This way we reward those that are always there and helping to progress and our more casual players still earn and bank dkp when they do come with us.
    I cant stand when ppl join our Guild and expect to get a million new pieces in their first run (we are currently just rolling) and in a few rare cases they have moved on soon after, for our raiders (especially the ones that are there almost every raid) there are some of the harder to get items that we are waiting for with baited breath and because of that there is always stiff competition on the item, ppl will decide how much that item is worth to them and bid to reflect that. My current I want item is Grim toll and with new ppl always joining there is no real relying on waiting everyone else out and getting it eventually, so with DKP I’ll just save up and burn some of it when it does finally drop.
    But yes I kinda digress, I have been a huge supporter once I researched the various styles and found one that would suit us. Now to convince a couple of the other officers and a few members that are resistant and we will be golden 🙂 I know it will benefit my Guild on the whole and iron out the looting issues/drama that arise on occasion… but just remember no matter how fair the system there will always be some Q.Q-ers.
    But thanks for your amazing site and keep up the good work, I love your articles and post links when I need an excellent example to get my point across.
    🙂 Thanks 🙂

  3. @ Melissa – Not sure where you’re seeing that there are penalties for wipes. If we have a wipe night with no bosses, we still get DKP, up to a maximum of 3 DKP which is equivalent to a boss.

    As for the additional mini-bosses (i.e. drakes in OS), we lose bonus DKP if we don’t get it right the first time, but I don’t see it as a penalty, rather as a lost bonus. We still get 4 DKP which is one more than regular bosses.

    Yes, one can get DKP for contributing to the guild bank. Not everyone in our guild has the time to farm as much as they need to so contributions are rewarded with DKP. The cap is to ensure that those who are capable of donating don’t abuse it. It wouldn’t be fair for someone with a lot of DKP to continue to donate to get ahead. Also one reason for the cap at 150, no DKP hoarding.

    This really is what many would term a casual raid guild. We raid two nights a week, sometimes three. We start at 7pm server and quit at 10pm server. Occasionally it might go over, but so far it seems we try to quit right then regardless of our progress. If it means we don’t clear Naxx that week, then we don’t clear Naxx and no one’s that concerned about it.

    That said, we’ve now cleared Naxx 25 as a guild in two sittings, two weeks in a row. That might not be an accomplishment for a lot of people, but even taking into account the ease of Naxx, in my opinion it’s quite an accomplishment for such a laid back guild.

  4. @ Kiramaren – Thank you for the compliment! 🙂 Glad you like the site.

    I’ll ask Zoja what he uses tonight, or maybe if we’re lucky Amber will post a response here before me.

    DKP definitely doesn’t solve the QQing issues, but it appears to be minimizing it. However, the advantage of the guild I’m in is everyone seems to be friends, many in RL, so that may play a part in avoiding some of the loot drama.

    I think the biggest advantage to DKP is that it’s not subjective and no one can claim favoritism, unless it’s to say that X and Y always get invited to raids before Z.

  5. You must have some dedicated souls calculating all the DKP every week.
    If the majority of your guild are happy with the way the system works, then that is the main thing.

    As you quite rightly pointed out previously, every loot upgrade is an upgrade for the raid; but people need to see their own gear improving too. That is where loot drama starts and finishes.

  6. My guild actually used EPGP, which can have its own flaws like DKP, but you can set it up so it is very fair as long as you tweak for your own particular guild. I feel like loot systems using DKP or EPGP are also a necessary evil because if loot goes to someone and people are unhappy, it is not anyone’s fault per se as it is a numbers game unlike loot council. Plus, better than rolling off as someone can arbitrarily get all the good loot and not deserve it. EPGP or DKP helps those that always raid and usually that means the people that are the backbone of a guild’s progression.

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