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Farming Raids In A Progression Guild

One of our resident mages, who I adore by the way, posted a question in our forums on Tuesday asking whether someone could start posting Naxx25 and OS25 guild runs to help out the few in the guild that still need gear to get into Ulduar. As many of you know, we’ve had some issues running Ulduar25 primarily due to healers, but to be honest we have some dps issues too.

This question came the day after our failed Ulduar25 run which unfortunately we could not fill. I believe we were still short a healer or two and a couple of dps, but that’s the beauty of not being an officer. I don’t have to pay attention to details like that! 😀

Mach decided that we weren’t going to pug the last few people just to get into Ulduar. He feels that it isn’t worth the hassles, screws up our dkp system, and no one wants to lose progression loot to lucky pugs. So everyone who didn’t want to go to Naxx instead was asked to leave raid. To be honest, I wholeheartedly agree with him. (Yeah, yeah I’ve made the argument in the past that sometimes it’s better to just pug or you have no chance at loot, but I’d still rather not.)

I didn’t want to go to be honest. I’d already run what I considered a fail Naxx25 on Erdkrieg. Kyrileanthos and Maedchen have items they could use from there, but definitely don’t need any of it. So other than emblems, which to be honest I don’t really care about since I’ll get them running Ulduar anyway, the only reason to go is to help the guild. So even though I left the raid, I was invited back and accepted.

Let me make this perfectly clear. I was more than happy to go help even though I wanted to level my DK instead. As I stated before, I was an idiot and purchased some recipes Kyr can’t learn until he hits 80… So I’m pushing hard for that. (Last night I hit 76. :))

Anyway, Amber’s already addressed that this was a fail run and I wholeheartedly agree. It wasn’t because we were wiping, it was because people who know the pulls and know the fights weren’t paying attention and caused the wipes. I finally left vent because the inane chatter was pissing me off! In my opinion, no one should be talking about random things that have nothing to do with the game when we’re wiping. (I suppose it didn’t help that some of the conversations were so random that I really didn’t want to listen to it anyway. Why is it that some people think everyone’s interested in what they have to say?)

No one likes to wipe, especially on trash. I do not mind wiping though when there’s a legitimate reason. We’re learning the fight. We’re not quite geared enough. We’re teaching others the fights and pulls. Yes, that’s right! I don’t mind wiping with people that don’t know the fights and pulls yet in a raid that I’ve farmed to death on 3 toons!!! But only if they are at least trying and paying attention.

Anyway, back to our mage’s question above. After a few responses supporting having guild Naxx runs, I decided to throw my two cents in. For those of you that know me or have followed my blog for a while, you know that I’m a very opinionated person. I may not always be right. I will always acknowledge the validity of another’s opinion even if I disagree with it. So I posted a response:

    The reason I was frustrated with Naxx25 wasn’t exactly because of the constant wiping. It was rather because of the inane chatter going on in vent that led me to believe that a good majority of the raid wasn’t paying attention. It may be Naxx, but when people are screwing around not really caring what they’re doing, wiping, and then continue to chatter about random things obviously not paying attention to the raid, I get irritated.
    So that said, I am more than happy to use any of my three healers to support a guild Naxx25 or other raid, but I am not OK supporting a guild run where people are going to screw around and not take it seriously. I’m a casual player with a hardcore raider mentality. If I’m going to raid I don’t want to do it half-assed. I hate afk’ers, alt-tabbers, people that don’t run back after a wipe, etc. It isn’t fair to others and whether I’m naive or not to expect others to return the favor, I still expect it.

I wonder if I caused a minor shitstorm? There were a lot of responses after that. 🙂

I try to keep a lot of my opinions to myself as I don’t want to cause issues or create stress for the officers, although poor Amber, bless her heart, puts up with some of my bitching.

Bottom line, if you’re going to raid whether casually or hardcore, you owe it to everyone else to pay attention and do your best. No one’s asking you to perform miracles, just don’t be stupid.

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10 Responses

  1. ……

    Ky

    …..

    Are you saying I was shitstorming all over you?? Because that’s totally gross… and wrong… and I so was not.

    >_>

    Yes I have a tendency to rant sometimes when touchy subjects like this come up that occasionally rub me the wrong way and cause numerous bad experiences to surface in my brain and remind me of all the lovely horror stories that haunt me, but I wasn’t by any means… ‘shitstorming’… WTF does that even MEAN!?

    Damn Ky….

    <_<

    Lol ♥♥♥

  2. I wholeheartedly agree with your post on the g-forum.

    I can barely call myself a casual raider anymore as finding the time to raid is difficult, but when I did raid ( a few weeks ago), Naxx25/10 runs were awful. Everyone knew the content, no one wiped because they couldn’t dance or didn’t understand to break people from webbing or anything. We were wiping on trash because the full Uld25 geared Pally MT decided- ‘hey, let’s see if i can pull every mob (literally) in the construct quarter pre-patchwerk. I’m pretty sure the healers can heal me through it and we have the dps…’

    Could it have been done? Maybe. Could the healers have healed him through it and everything actually gone smoothly? Possibly…I guess…

    Except he didn’t tell anyone that’s what he was doing. Instead, he and everyone else on vent was talking about their favorite burger restaurant and laughing about the pally wiping everyone. He pulled two rooms, got healed by two healers, dps was doing nothing and others were just standing there. It was infuriating.

    Props to you for writing your (extremely correct) opinion in an inoffensive, non-flamming way.

  3. I feel you Ky. My raid, which has been struggling to survive (crit by RL issues, leaving only 4 standing out of 10) has been doing something of the like recently.

    Near the last few days of raiding, we were still killing things, but it was getting really, really sloppy. Im talking razorscale with only 2 people standing, XT with 3, and all of the heals down, so I had to frantically bomb HL to try and get the last few thousands down, and wiping *after* kolo is down to his stupid rumblers (or whatever they are called).

    I am hoping that after this extended break that everyone comes back fresh and rearing for content. We had just broke into the keepers, it was sad when I heard the news about the break.

    However, I did get a chance to Raid Lead and Heal my own Naxx 10 run. It was with mostly new, and definitely undergeared players, so it was rough and tumble, but we got the spider quarter down, which was a first for 70% of my raid. Everyone was stoked, and I cant wait to get back in. Were going to try the undead side next.

  4. Agree with you on the vent issue. I don’t care if we are steam rolling through every mob/boss in the raid, the chatter in vent annoys the hell out of me. It might be because as a tank I have to concentrate more than as a dps. Any distraction might lead to a mistake that in turn it might lead to a wipe. This in turn leads to the inevitable 10m wasted, if you lucky, while everyone runs back and gets buff.

  5. We’re having a similar “discussion” with regards to normal-mode Uld25 and hard-mode Uld10.

    During the summer slump I picked up a few new raiders who claimed to be ready for hardmode Uld25, but just … aren’t. (3.5K DPS is fine for normal-mode Uld10, but 5K is a minimum for IC25 hard. >.<) I've wait listed these players from progression raids, which has caused some consternation. "How can I improve my DPS up if I can't get gear?" "You won't even give me a chance." "QQ."

    My response is this: "We recruited you for hard-modes. You said you were ready. You aren't. Now, it's up to you: work on your gear on your own time and ride the bench until you're capable of contributing to progression, or join a guild that's doing content appropriate to your level of gear and skill."

    I flat-out refuse to heal lower content on my main to farm gear for people who expect to be carried in the off-chance that they might, maybe, someday, be able to carry their weight in a progression raid. We may identify ourselves as a "casual raiding" guild, but we aren't raider kindergarden either.

    TL;DR. Join a guild at your level or stop the god damn whining.

  6. Slacking in raids had been an issue I noticed since I joined BoO up until the time I left. When the RL has to constantly call (the same) people out over and over and nothing is ever done about it, a trickle down effect occurs and you have runs like the one you experienced. It’s the whole “casual raid/hardcore social” mentality of the guild that causes those issues. Nothing wrong with it, but not exactly ideal for those who are focused on the task at hand.

    I’m like you in that I raid to enjoy the content… not to hear random voices talking about useless shit for 3+ hours. If I wanted to do that I’d skip the raid and just hang out in vent. I couldn’t tell you how many times I wished some people’s P2T buttons would break. Global mute was a consideration, but that would be 1/2 the raid so I figured it would be best not to :).

    I’d love to rant more but you know I’m on the same page as you. Anyways, I support your post 100% simply because someone needs to start a ‘shitstorm’ since I’m not around to do so anymore.

  7. My guild has had some of these issues at times. I love my guild and when everyone is serious, we literally kick ass. But when 90% of the raid consists of alts, the atmosphere tend to get a little laid back. I’ve tried raiding before when I didn’t feel like it and the results are usually disastrous (especially when I’m one of two healers). Nowadays I never, ever raid when I don’t feel like it. I don’t care if our Ulduar run gets postponed because of me; either we do it right or we don’t do it at all.

    And I think it’s good to express you opinions, particularly when your opinion differs from everyone elses. A good guild (and good friends) should have no problem facing that stuff. 🙂

  8. I guess I don’t understand the “no one wants to lose progression loot to lucky pugs.” Of course not. But the choice seems to be
    a) guild gets some gear, while in a travesty of justice, undeserving pugs get some
    b) guild gets zero gear
    If there was a c) of a full run of the very best guildies in top shape who actually want to raid enough to show up, then you would choose c. However, the reality remains a or b. And b results in more gear and experience for the guild. And if 20% of the raid are pugs and they get 30% of the loot then life is unfair. but that is still more gear the guild can use to progress and certainly more gear than would be acquired QQ while parking your mammoth on the IF mailbox. (Saying that PUGs are too much of a hassle to run with is a valid but different objection.)

    No matter how unfair you think the 20% alimony is, not working and thus forgoeing your 80% might be emotionally satisfying, but not really in your best financial interest.

    And I am certainly not criticizing you; it is the traditional opinion. It just seems illogical to me.

  9. @Hagu – If you would have caught me pre-Wrath I would have agreed with you whole-heartedly. In fact, I remember someone else writing about this very thing and I expressed my opinion which was very much like yours.

    Now though, I’m raiding a lot less and after having been part of a few failed progression attempts involving pugs, I’m less inclined to push for that. The reason is we raid during the week and because of work, I can only stay for 3 hours max based on our start time.

    Unfortunately when pugging, we spend 30 minutes to an hour trying to fill slots, then attempt a boss only to have the pugs quit after a wipe, then waste another 30 minutes filling their slots. Rinse and repeat. If I’m lucky, I get an hour’s worth of actual raid time and maybe a boss kill.

    Based on this example, I’d rather go pug a farmed raid for emblems than a progression raid. For me it’s not so much about the loot, because chances are I won’t get any anyway, but it is about wasting time.

  10. I joined a pug for 25 sunwell and it was a major CF. Took over 2 hours to fill the spots, by then several DKs were board and thought they should pull stuff before everyone is even in the instance. New healer I could not keep em healed the 5 of us wiped they laughed on vent. back in the instance we were eating buffing, etc. and the idiots pulled again. There were more folks in the instance but we still wiped. Not a fun evening. Almost 3 hours and we did not even get past the first trash mob past the robot guy.

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